Elxis CMS Forum
Support => General => Topic started by: Sunlight on August 02, 2012, 14:23:48
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We might have just a few Hours "Free", in the middle of this Summer, after Years of intensive work+, in order to UPDATE from the original 2008.0 Elxis' version (Stable rev1891 [ Olympus ]) into the latest, 2009.3 version or more.
Apparently, (and in addition to various other Extensions, etc. Advantages) it seems that it might be Necessary in order to Settle a "PHP Warning" message which is Disfiguring the Layout of our website, by adapting the version to Higher PHP 5.2, etc. (See : https://forum.elxis.org/index.php?topic=6982.0 ).
=> Is there any Simple and Safe, crystal-Clear, Easy to use, (even for Non-Specialist Users of "Elxis"), UPDATE PATH from 2008.0 to 2009.3 version ?
Upgrading from an original 2008.0 Elxis version up to the latest 2009.3 (and/or soon, maybe Nautilus brand new version) often is Difficult for non-specialist Users, who don't have enough time to loose on Technicalities, and even Risk to loose and/or Disfigure their work of many Years, while they urgently need to keep their Website constantly operational. (Thus, many practical Questions may be raised, including, f.ex., How to avoid eventual Destruction of the Original LAYOUT ?. How could we RETURN to the Original version/Website layout, -f.ex. thanks to a Back-up, etc- IF the upgrade fails ?; etc)
>>> We really Need practical Help, and this could be also (entirely or partly) Useful also for Other "Elxis" Users,
(as well as a Guarantee of Certainty for anyone who considers using Elxis, that he/she could always find a Simple and Efficient Update Path to the Latest Version, systematically : Something obviously very important for any CMS which ambitions to Develop itself).
Thanks in advance for any useful replies.
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The definitions of words: Simple, Safe, crystal-clear and easy to use are totally subjective, Sunlight! You can't do some things that i can and conversely. Elxis Team have already published to each interested a certain instructions of how you can upgrade step by step your elxis installation. So you can't upgrade it from Elxis 2008.0 Stable rev1891 Olympus version to Elxis 2009.3 Aphrodite rev2691 one. You have to use several patches since your website will have been upgraded to Elxis 2009.3 Aphrodite rev2691 version. Take a look to the Elxis Patches (http://www.elxis-downloads.com/downloads/patches/) list on Elxis Download Center (EDC).
What 'practical' help means? And how this practical help could be also set as useful for other Elxis's users?
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..... you can upgrade step by step your elxis installation.
So you can't upgrade it from Elxis 2008.0 Stable rev1891 Olympus version to Elxis 2009.3 Aphrodite rev2691 one.
You have to use several patches since your website will have been upgraded to Elxis 2009.3 Aphrodite rev2691 version.
Take a look to the Elxis Patches (http://www.elxis-downloads.com/downloads/patches/) list on Elxis Download Center (EDC).
..../...
+ In addition, will the (5 or 6 !!!!!) successive update(s) that you advise, even destroy the LAYOUT of the current website, (so that this would also oblige to re-start anew from scratch a tiresome work already done a long time ago), or not ?
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....upgrade step by step your elxis installation. ...you can't upgrade it from Elxis 2008.0 Stable rev1891 Olympus version to Elxis 2009.3 Aphrodite rev2691 one. You have to use several patches ....
Take a look to the Elxis Patches (http://www.elxis-downloads.com/downloads/patches/) list on Elxis Download Center (EDC).
.... how this practical help could be also set as useful for other Elxis's users?
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+ From the Link that you cited, it results that, while more than 9.500 People were interested in the initial, 2008 Elxis version update, on the contrary, only about 2.500 searched for the latest among several updates to the latest, 2009.3 version. That obviously makes - 7.000 less !...
But it doesn't mean at all that less People might want Elxis now, than in the Past :
- On the contrary, even our case is a real, concrete and existing example of (apparently) a Majority of People who want, have, continue to use and wish to develop Elxis even now and in the future,
but have been hindered to update to the latest, 2009.3 version, because doing all those numerous, successive updates, (even with an eventual risk to destroy a website's Layout, etc), seems too cumbersome, too TIME consuming, and even Dangerous.
+ Even other People have already asked, long before us, whether "1 pathway" can exist from old Elxis' versions to the latest one.
=> Such FACTS clearly prove that it's really needed to find a simple and crystal-clear, practical way to make easy the updates from the initial(+) to the latest Elxis' version, (preferably by simplifying to 1 path).
And the forthcoming Nautilus' innovation will even make that need to SIMPLIFY Updates, even more obvious and urgent for more People. In general, for a CMS to be developed while also staying and becoming even more Popular, it obviously must invent simple, crystal clear ways to update from the initial(s) versions to the latest, with 1 short pathway.
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Certain directions are included to each patch. If you afraid loosing or destroying any of the submitted data that you have done all these years you can hire some web specialist. As a part of Elxis Team i would like to thank you sharing with us some information - concerns regarding updates.
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If you afraid loosing or destroying any of the submitted data that you have done all these years
you can hire some web specialist. .....
(sic !).....
Incredible !
After many Hours (+ Dates) vainly wasted to collect relevant info, write and publish many "urgent" messages in 2 different "Elxis" Forum areas, (because someone here told us that updating Elxis' Versions would be the only solution to a specific problem - which seemed to be rather an e-Aggression), searching to find concrete data and reply to various dilatory questions raised by some people here (apparently ...useless, given the lack of any specific reply to the points that they had raised themselves !), etc., finally, ..... the ONLY so-called "Help" given here is to demand to .... "HIRE A SPECIALIST" !!!......(sic !)..
Sincerely, are you kidding ? Is that your only understanding of the "Open Source" and "Free CMS" Internet Community Worldwide movement ? On the contrary, all its basic, elementary Philosophy, since the 90ies, is, precisely, AGAINST subordinating E-Citizens to a few so-called "Specialists", against Anti-Democratic Barriers by Money, opposed to People's Freedom to Access, use and develop the Internet. On the contrary, it's based on Free Exchange of Helpful Infos between Members of a Web Community, on Solidarity, on a will to enlarge and develop Web Communities well beyond petty mercantile interests, technocratic, money or other Barriers to the Free Flow of Information exchanged friendly between People who have decided and committed themselves to try to help grow a Web Community, (as, f.ex., that of Elxis).
Otherwise, (i.e. if you trumple underfoot Netiquette, WWWeb's Open Movement's basic Morality, and even People's trust, time and energy, uselessly wasted in 2 threads at this Forum for NOTHING), you shouldn't claim in public, at the WWWeb, to be part of a Collective, e-Democratic Movement whose basic Principles (as well as elementary Moral Principles, in such a case), are thrown here to the Wastebasket !
If it's like this, (i.e. if, even after vainly wasting so much precious Time in 2 succesive threads, etc. without receiving the slightest practical Help, NOT even any Serious, concrete Answer with any useful Info, on any of the "Urgent" Question that we've been raisiing since a long time ago), then, don't think that Elxis might stand the growing Competition of various other CMS, whose Web Communities usually reply fast and accurately to People's demandes for Help in their Forums, etc. : In that case, Other "Open" and "Free" CMS will by pass you soon, (regardless of Elxis' initial and potential value, and this will be a pitty for all honest people involved all these years).
After more than 5 or 6 Years of using Elxis (and any CMS' success depends mainly on whether it's easy, or not, to be used in real practice by iits users who provide the CONTENT that People search at the Internet, and not only empty technicalities), it's the FIRST TIME that, surprisingly, NOBODY from the original Team of Elxis, or from its newest members, doesn't give ANY useful Help to so many urgent calls asking at least to simplify the solution to a specific Technical Problem which (as we saw supra : Comp. relevant Data) is -and will contiinue to be- faced frequently by many People among those who decide to take the Risk to start using Elxis, and give it a chance to prove its capacities.
To put it in a nutshell, all this waste and harm done by scandalously persisting to Refuse to give any useful Help or info concerning certain key Elxis' technical problems, abandon several questions unanswered, waste People's time with useless Dilatory questions out of issue, (etc), and finally ask to the Victims to ... "HIRE A SPECIALIST" (sic !) is an obviously Hostile, Negative and Damaging behavior which should not be allowed in any Web Community !
During almost 20 Years of Internet's manifold use, it's the first time that we witness such a blatant Refusal of any useful Help, in a Web Community which claims to help develop a Free Software, (perhaps with only 1 exception of a small, petty Merchand who had been abusing of People's trust to the "Open Source" and "Free" Internet software development Movement, merely in order to hide his Mercantile, selfish interests, slyly "trapping" his victims by disguising his real intentions to just pick their Money by Hindering them to freely use the Software that he had immoraly presented with a False Publicity to be "Free", etc., until he was unmasked, denounced, and "disappeared" from the WWWeb Communities)....
In Past years, we had seen, here, at Elxis' initial team, several Honest, Intelligent and Helpful People, who gave us, (as well as to other Elxis Community Members), the needed Practical Help, and we were grateful to them.
By developing further a succesful website, with more and more interesting content, seen, read and used by a fast-growing number of People from Many (more than 95) Countries accross the World, who, at the same time, see that this is made possible thanks to "Elxis", we (as a long time Elxis Web Community Member, as well as other friends here and elsewhere) contribute to Elxis' Worldwide Reputation and facilitate its further development by helping to make it more Popular.
It's a scandalous pitty, and an awful, damaging waste, IF some have recently decided to undermine Elxis' Web Community by threatening to make it untrustworthy.
It's not only a question of Money, but also of precious Time wasted for nothing, of many Years of Trust and Work slyly "trapped", now betrayed and threatened, as well as a serious issue of e-Democracy, of People's Freedom to use the Internet without being subordinated and enslaved to a few "Specialists", even for the slightest thing, and for the sake of all the basic Philosphy and Values of the original "Open Source" and "Free Software" Historic and currently growing movement of Internet Communities.
Both us, (as long-time users and Members of Elxis' Community, to which we have already made and continue to make an important Free Publicity at many Countries Worldwide), and ELXIS software and inital Team itself, (which, as we believe, still has an important and valuable Pontential, if it's not undermined by some clumsy, technocratic obstacles), deserved much better than this awful and damaging waste !
As we warned, right from the start, after many years, we had, at last, just "a few Hours" to work, during this Summer, in order to fix a suddent Technical Problem which appeared and disfigures our website based on Elxis, (See other, earlier relevant Thread). But, now, almost all the Summer has gone, (with many Hours and Dates wasted for Nothing), and NOBODY GAVE us here ANY USEFUL INFORMATION able to solve just one (1) Elxis' problem !...
=> WHAT HAPPENED TO the initial "ELXIS" COMMUNITY's Spirit ????.....
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=> WHAT HAPPENED TO the initial "ELXIS" COMMUNITY's Spirit Huh?....
At first I have to admit that I didn't read your whole post as it is big and I have not so much time available. But I will reply starting from this last sentence you wrote.
In Elxis we work the last 2 years without being paid, and for many hours per day to prepare the new Elxis release.
Personally I work only on Elxis 4.x, I don't even take jobs, and I don't update my own software. I have chosen to work without being paid instead of creating commercial apps and get money in order people like you to do a simple click and download Elxis so easy. We are here to help people create nice sites. BTW, have you ever worked, not for 6 years like me, but just for a month for something not yours without being paid? Have you ever abandon your job to work for something else without being paid? Have you ever volunteer to anything? Most people don't... Or if they have, their contribution is very close to zero. So, don't blame Elxis Community or Elxis Team, you have no right to speak like that in here!
From my experience I can say that 99,9% of the problems people report us are due to bad usage of the software, bad server setup, and browser problems due to tool-bars, blockers, firewalls, etc. Most sites are hosted on bad servers managed by people don't know about servers... Most users are in a hurry, they are not careful, they don't even look at the general configuration settings. The ask us the same things again and again because they are bored to read the documentation or this forum. "How do I make component X appear in frontpage?" I think I have replied to this question more than 100 times... It is written on the wiki though but no one reads it... People want us to fix their problems because they are bored to look at very simple things. If you don't care about your site better don't have a site...
Elxis is pure open source system because (among others):
1. There are no big companies behind it.
2. It is driven by passion and not by money.
3. It is made by people who care about you.
4. It is made for fun, not for money or glory.
5. We don't accept sponsors and advertisements.
You, and I mean personally YOU, should know that we have no support contracts here. We help people by our will and when we can do so (we have to work and live too and we have zero free time). We provide the software for free, it is up to you how you will use it. This is the meaning of the GNU/GPL license. You might get help but you also might not. There is no guarantee on the software itself or on the support you get. This is valid for ANY open source software.
Especially for your problem with Elxis.
I don't know which is the exact problem, I read something about an update, is it for a non-supported update? When an update from version X to version Y is NOT available there is a serious reason for this. We, on purpose, don't release an update patch. For instance updating from 2006.4 to 2008.0 is NOT possible. Whoever tell you something different he simply does not know Elxis so good... As for updating Elxis 2008.0/1 to 2009.0 there is an update patch available. If you need to apply more than 1 patch, apply each patch one by one, not all together. Follow the included guide and I believe you will manage to safely update your site. Take a full site backup before you begin the update procedure and don't by furious. If you have a specific question you can send me a personal message.
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its not so difficult, actually if you start to work and not talk AND if you love what you do then you have also some fun, i update 42 sites from 2008 to 2009 in 2 days !
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Actually software updates are for the protection of the user just as hosts update the versions of Php and MySql for their protection.
Your comments are very unfair to those who try to help you. They have nothing to do with the trustworthiness of Elxis.
Open Source may mean free software but it does not always mean free services.
I do not understand why some people assume that everything is free.
As everyone mentions here, there are instructions (free) that detail what must be done to successfully update the versions of Elxis that you have.
If a user is not sure of what to do or how to, then the user must eventually call upon the services of those that do.
If I have a toothache, I certainly wouldn't try drilling into my own teeth, then I would go to a dentist.
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... => WHAT HAPPENED TO the initial "ELXIS" COMMUNITY's Spirit ?
.... I will reply starting from this last sentence you wrote.....
... Elxis is pure open source system because (among others):
1. There are no big companies behind it.
2. It is driven by passion and not by money.
3. It is made by people who care about you.
4. It is made for fun, not for money or glory.
5. We don't accept sponsors and advertisements.....
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Dear Datahell, you (and most of your initial or new Friends of "Elxis" Web Community) are obviously doing a WONDERFUL and Pioneer IT work, since many Years, that we are sure that it will soon succeed to develop "Elxis" even much further, and bring it at an even higher level, worldwide !
(But, when "Nautilus" new version will be definitively OK, Please don't forget to also try, whenever you can, to make the Update as SIMPLE as possible)...
The unprecedented problems were provoked elsewhere ....
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... Personally I work only on Elxis 4.x, ....and I don't update my own software. ...
.... I don't know which is the exact problem, I read something about an update, ........ for updating Elxis 2008.0/1 to 2009.0 there is an (= 1 ?) update patch available. If you need to apply more (?) than 1 patch, apply each patch one by one, not all together. Follow the included guide ..... Take a full site backup before you begin .....
That's an unexpected, fantastic revelation, dear Datahell ! (And it can make many "Elxis" users Optimist : Hope it's really possible).....
We obviously tried to do something Similar, by keeping our initial 2008 version until 2012, (because we have to urgently dedicate all our Time in order to FILL it up with fresh CONTENT, interesting for Internet users, instead of Technicalities).
But, recentlly, something (may be an E - Aggression ?) disfigured our Frontpage with an incomprehensible, strange "PHP Error" message, (for which we didn't manage to find yet nothing at Elxis' Wiki, Manual or Forum, etc), and, when we asked for "Urgent" Help at another Thread, the only concrete "Advise" that we got in "Elxis' Forum, (after many questions/replies), was that the Solution should be to "Update" to the latest (2009.3) version. (See it all at : https://forum.elxis.org/index.php?&topic=6982.0 ).
=> That's why, since then, we were OBLIGED to raise the Question of a SIMPLE and EFFICIENT way to UPDATE from the 2008 rto the 2009.(3) version,
because :
(a) the only Info that we got here, from Webgift, (see above), apparently meant that there are MANY successive UPDATES to do, instead of just ONE, and this (4 or 5 different updates !!!!.....) looked rather Complicated and/or Dangerous, (See : "b")
(b) there wasn't yet any answer to our (repeated) Question whether "Elxis"' Updates might affect a Website's LAYOUT (i.e. the concrete way its TEMPLATE was set up), or not. And, if "Yes", then, how could Risks to Destroy/Disfigure a Layout, on which People have already invested a lot of Work during many Years, could be avoided, prevented, or, at least, find the most Simple and Efficient solution possible ?
This obviously is a Practical question to which many "Elxis" users have to find a satisfactory Reply, (and it could become even more important/urgent when you shall publish the forthcoming, new, "Nautilus" version, later-on).
F.ex., in various other Softwares, whenever en Update might be needed, it can be done Easily, with a Simple "Clic" at the Right patch to download, and then, it Automatically makes the full update, (without upsetting at all the pre-existing Layout of the already chosen and prepared Template). Couldn't this become possible also for "Elxis" updates (if and when they might be necessary) ?
=> So, the obvious Questions that we raised, (since the beginning of this Summer), remain always the same :
(1) Is it really necessary (and sufficient) to update from the 2008.0 to the latest 2009.3 version, in order to automatically solve that "PHP ERROR - WARNING" problem (as some told us in this Forum : See Data referred above) ?
(2) If the answer is "Yes", could this (necessary) Update be done without any Risks to affect the LAYOUT of the Websites' TEMPLATE, (which took a lot of work to be set up, during many Years) ?
(3) + Is there any SIMPLE and SURE way to make this "Elxis" Update with ONE (1) safe operation, or does it really need MANY, successive Updating operations, which might be too complicated, cumbersome and dangerous ?
Many Thanks in advance to anyone able to provide any useful, crystal-clear and positive answer really helping to solve that problem(s),
(even after all these Weeks, since the initial question).
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its not so difficult ..... i update 42 sites from 2008 to 2009 in 2 days !
Then, we repeat the same Question that we've asked, here and elsewhere, many times, (without getting any answer) :
- Do Elxis' update(s) risk to Destroy/Disfigure the LAYOUT of a Website's TEMPLATE, (already made with a lot of work, during many years), or not ?
Αnd, if yes, is there any way to prevent (or at least diminish) that risk ?
(NDLR : Various other Softwares "update" regularly, almost automatically, just by choosing the right patch and press a buton, without provoking any disturbance to already made work by their users).
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... very unfair ....
Absolutely : we were obliged to waste 1,5 Month during Summer for nothing, and even to be deprived of Sleep for several Nights, while others, elsewhere, get fast, practical replies to their various needs, almost in 1 or 2 Days... including yourself.
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... nothing to do with the trustworthiness of Elxis. ....
Be sure, before choosing to work with one among many available "Open" and "Free" CMS Softwares, (and make Free, Worldwide Publicity to it for many Years to Millions of People), that, at least, it has a real Web Community of well intentioned and competent People sincerely dedicated to develop it, including through collective exchanges of info, mutually beneficial to any WWW Community, f.ex. in a Forum, and that you never risk to be "trapped" and blocked at any moment (f.ex. after a sly E-Aggression, etc.) in the middle of the road, obviously is a "must" for all Websites and Internet users.
Initially, "Elxis" used to be really that. Hopefully, it can safeguard and develop further its initial spirit also in the Future.
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..... there are instructions (free) that detail what must be done to successfully update the versions of Elxis ....
No reply was ever given to the question of websites' LAYOUT eventual risks while trying to update (see supra), nor to that of a DIRECT PATHWAY, instead of being obliged to do 4 or 5 different Updates, neither on whether there might be a way to SIMPLIFY things, instead of complicating them uselessly, and our Initial query, (at an earlier thread which obliged us to start this follow-up) about a strange PHP "Error" Message which suddenly started to Disfigure our Website, still remains open, without any final solution.
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...I do not understand why some people assume that everything (sic !) is free...... If a user is not sure of what to do or how to, then the user must ...call upon the services of those that do..... If I have a toothache, I certainly wouldn't try drilling into my own teeth, then I would go to a dentist. (sic !) ...
There is a Big Difference between the "Open Source", "Free Software", and user-Friendly, pioneer Web Communities' Internet social Movement, (currently growing Worldwide), and a commercial private business of .... a "Dentist", (as you curiously claim) !
As for your strange choice to speak about ... "Toothache"(s) affecting "Elxis"' long-time users, as you said, we wouldn't follow you in such a path,
obviously preferring to keep and develop further "Elxis", on the contrary, as a Positive, Crystal-clear, SIMPLE, EFFICIENT, User-Friendly, Web-Community supported, and POPULAR CMS software.
By the way : ... "Thanks" a lot for all your "useful" "Help" and "Infos" (See above)... Thought that American guys able to do a job even in Turkey were more Friendly and Efficient...
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its not so difficult ..... i update 42 sites from 2008 to 2009 in 2 days !
Then, we repeat the same Question that we've asked, here and elsewhere, many times, (without getting any answer) :
- Do Elxis' update(s) risk to Destroy/Disfigure the LAYOUT of a Website's TEMPLATE, (already made with a lot of work, during many years), or not ?
Αnd, if yes, is there any way to prevent (or at least diminish) that risk ?
(NDLR : Various other Softwares "update" regularly, almost automatically, just by choosing the right patch and press a buton, without provoking any disturbance to already made work by their users).
the answer in most cases is NO, the template havnt something to do with updates patches, except if
...you make changes in standard.css (if you do that you have to save the old file and replase it after update)
...you have some pluggins (i mean only elxis pluggins) that they havnt updated for the latests versions of elxis
............try it first all those in an no so important site
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be carefull
if you have make changes in one of default elxis template you have to save the first one and after updates, delete completely the new and upload the folder of the old
FIRST OF ALL TAKE A FULL BACKUP FOR THE SITES THAT YOU UPDATE
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Answers to your questions:
(1) Is it really necessary (and sufficient) to update from the 2008.0 to the latest 2009.3 version, in order to automatically solve that "PHP ERROR - WARNING" problem (as some told us in this Forum : See Data referred above) ?
Mostly yes but can't tell for sure without debug as I don't know the real cause of the error.
Read my reply here: https://forum.elxis.org/index.php?topic=6982 (https://forum.elxis.org/index.php?topic=6982)
(2) If the answer is "Yes", could this (necessary) Update be done without any Risks to affect the LAYOUT of the Websites' TEMPLATE, (which took a lot of work to be set up, during many Years) ?
Updates do not modify user files including the templates. The only case you will have a problem is if you use a pre-installed template like Okto which you have modified. If you have made changes to the core Elxis files these changes might be lost after the update. Depends on the specific update. In any case read first the README.txt file which is included in all patch packages.
(3) + Is there any SIMPLE and SURE way to make this "Elxis" Update with ONE (1) safe operation, or does it really need MANY, successive Updating operations, which might be too complicated, cumbersome and dangerous ?
Yes, but you have to be me... So, no for you, because you don't have my experience and knowledge on the system. But there is no reason to apply all of them at once. Even me I apply the patches one by one. It is not too hard, in fact it is the most safe way to do it. Also if you have shell access you can apply a patch in 2 seconds by providing an unzip command with the -o option (also written in README.txt file). The same can be done via cpanel or other similar control panel. Don't forget also updating mysql too. Do what it is written in the README.txt file. When you finish the update run the Updiag tool to inspect your installation.
Read my reply here: https://forum.elxis.org/index.php?topic=6982 (https://forum.elxis.org/index.php?topic=6982)
An update might fix the problem but might not, can't tell this for sure without first identifying the error source.
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Personally I don't care , sunlight about your money, your wasted time (your words: don't have enough time to loose on Technicalities) and generally your opinion about me. I will consider you as reliable person by the time you will spend at least the 50% of what i have done for any open source effort. I am not going to prove you anything more or less. As Datahell mentioned we spent a lot of hours working without any incomes in order PEOPLE LIKE YOU to do a simple click and download Elxis so easy. Do you want to come with us? Are you available to spend innumerable hours of working and supporting people? If you are unable to solve something that provided as clear as it can be .. i am really sorry but the problem is yours. You don't have the right knowledge to get it solved. So if you are useless to solve that and at the same time you are afraid that you will loose all of the work... i am sorry but as many hours we spend for you writing additional or double instructions as you aren't going to solve it by yourself.
Οbservations:
- There is no any Elxis 2012 version that as it seem you don't know any basic info about community.
- It is no coincidence that we have few questions about Elxis Updates. You belong to minority.
- I am not going to listen a person who tries to give us the mean of Open Source and AT THE SAME TIME HE HAVEN'T OFFERED ANYTHING TO OPEN SOURCE.
(b) there wasn't yet any answer to our (repeated) Question whether "Elxis"' Updates might affect a Website's LAYOUT (i.e. the concrete way its TEMPLATE was set up), or not. And, if "Yes", then, how could Risks to Destroy/Disfigure a Layout, on which People have already invested a lot of Work during many Years, could be avoided, prevented, or, at least, find the most Simple and Efficient solution possible ?
Exactly repeated and doubled post. I have already answered you: https://forum.elxis.org/index.php?topic=6799.msg46060#msg46060 but as it seems i waste my time.
And finally keep the sentence below as advice:
Before you post something here spent some more time to think what you are going to write.